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Late night talk show curiosity

 
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barmar
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject: Late night talk show curiosity Reply with quote

I've noticed a little difference in the guide data for late night talk shows since switching to LaHo.

In general, the guide only has guest information for about a week ahead. After that, it just has a generic description of the show, like "The English actor interviews guests and hosts musical performances" for the Late Late Show.

When we were getting the guide data from DNNA, these shows were marked as new. Since switching to LaHo, they're marked as repeats. In both cases, I don't think the guide actually knows one way or the other (it says repeat for next Thursday night's LLS, but I found another source that says it's a new episode). It just seems to be a default, and it changed with the new setup.

Not a big deal, but I was wondering if you knew why this was. Does LaHo get the rerun indicator from TMS differently than the ReplayTV mothership did?
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rmeden
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure LaHo is using the same feed ReplayTV used (Gracenote flat file). The flag is passed on directly from the raw data.

The data doesn't flags repeats at all. This stopped a few years ago. It now flags *NEW* episodes. I spoke a little about it at Schedules Direct HERE

I consider the ReplayTV wrong. If we don't know what's going to be on (Generic show-id rather than a numbered episode) it shouldn't have the *new* flag.

As noted in my linked post, there are exceptions.. News Programs, Sports, etc are seldom flagged as new. I suggest apps decide how they want to handle it.


Robert
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you mean, and since your post my guide has filled with an additional day such that next Thursday's show no longer says repeat and has the proper description filled in. But, now next Friday shows the same thing. However, if you look at it closely, it looks like the information about is indicates that it would be considered a repeat:
Code:
The English actor interviews guests and hosts musical performances. (Repeat, First Aired: 3/23/2015) 60m
where the first aired date would certainly indicate that it's a repeat...

My recollection of DNNA's presentation was that it was pretty similar, but I think it didn't say it was a repeat, that being the only difference. And, quite honestly, for shows in the future like that, it probably really doesn't make much difference, because as the time gets closer, it will have the correct information. I noticed this is quite common for daily shows to only have an actual description for about a week and then have some kind of generic description further in the future...

But, what Robert was trying to explain was that the old way that "repeat" used to work was that shows were specifically flagged as repeat, and if the provider didn't flag them as such, then they weren't indicated as repeat. This caused a lot of problems on the syndicated channels because they weren't marking them as "repeat". I don't know what prompted the change, but a long time ago they decided to switch to marking the shows as "new", and that way it was more clear that a show wasn't new unless it was marked as new, versus it not being marked as repeat. So, unforutnately, this kind of messes up ReplayTV's recoding methodology that they had this new feature for the 5Ks of distinguishing first runs from repeats. And, maybe the wording in the 5K isn't the best, but for the new recording method, it probably is perfectly reasonable that it says "first runs", and that equates to shows that are marked as "new". Unfortunately, while it says that, you can see in the "normal" recording method saying first runs and repeats, that "repeat" is the way the 5K operates. So, the Replay is still based on having a repeat flag, and first run is simply the absence of the repeat flag. So, that's why we have to implement it as Robert posted, that we make the absence of the "new" flag from the current information set the repeat flag in the ReplayTV, and follow the rules that Robert posted about when to not look for the new flag, like for sporting events, for example...

But, from my example above, the fact that is says that it first aired on 3/23/2015, which seems to be completely made up because they all have that same date for the non-description ones, it would clearly be considered a repeat. It's just that the difference between how ReplayTV did it, with an actual repeat flag, versus the current scheme, the absence of the new flag, that it now flags as a repeat instead of just not saying that it's a repeat...

And, in this case, who knows which is correct. It doesn't even have the show information, so is it a repeat or is it new? Who knows? We don't know yet. So, the difference is in ReplayTV only flagging things which are indicated as repeats as repeats versus the new method of indicating things that are not new as repeats...

Quite honestly, I'm not totally sure behind the scenes how ReplayTV changed to the new method. The advantage was that reruns on the syndicated channels started showing "repeat" after the guide change, versus that they didn't used to, which was annoying. And, maybe it's as straightforward as simply reversing the "new" indicator, that LLS normally was indicated as repeat for those future nondescript episodes. For example, here is a future nondescipt episode for a soap opera:
Code:
Relationships grow and die in the town of Salem. (First Aired: 11/8/1965) 60m
where you can see that the first aired date is way, way in the past, and yet it doesn't indicate repeat...

Anyway, my suggestion is that you look at someting like Zap2It, which uses the same guide service. For the same two shows it indicates:
Code:
The Late Late Show With James Corden
(First Aired: Mar. 23, 2015)

The English actor interviews guests and hosts musical performances.

    CC
and
Code:
Days of our Lives
NEW

Relationships grow and die in the town of Salem.

    CC TV-14
where the information is the same indicating LLS not as new, verus the soap opera as being new (where it doesn't even indicated the first aired date for the soap opera, which is now looking to me like they're both the premiere date)...

Kind of overboard with explanation, but you can maybe get an idea of it all. As I said, the indication of new or repeat on these future unknown episodes, who knows which way is better? However, I'm not totally sure that the ReplayTV wasn't indicating LLS the same way for those future episodes, kind of hard to tell now!

Henry
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rmeden
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hdonzis wrote:
But, from my example above, the fact that is says that it first aired on 3/23/2015, which seems to be completely made up because they all have that same date for the non-description ones, it would clearly be considered a repeat.

I beleive for generic SH* episode-ids the Original-Air-Date field contains the start of the series. Did the Series start (maybe with a new host) 3/23/2015?
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rmeden wrote:
hdonzis wrote:
But, from my example above, the fact that is says that it first aired on 3/23/2015, which seems to be completely made up because they all have that same date for the non-description ones, it would clearly be considered a repeat.

I beleive for generic SH* episode-ids the Original-Air-Date field contains the start of the series. Did the Series start (maybe with a new host) 3/23/2015?


Where have you been? I don't know if that's the date, but it wouldn't surprise me...

Henry
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barmar
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, March 23 was the first night that James Corden took over the Late Late Show. So it seems that they use the premiere date as the first run date when they don't have a more specific date to use.

The main difference that this makes is what happens when I try to schedule conflicting shows. Previously it assumed these generic episodes were new, so it would report the conflict when you try to schedule them. Now it doesn't report the conflicts (because my series recording of the talk show is set for only new episodes), and the conflict only comes to light when the guide updates a few days later.
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hdonzis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess you are indicating that previously ReplayTV reported these as not repeat. Unfortunately, as I said, I have no way to confirm this. However, when I was watching SchedulesDirect and ReplayTV both in action, it looked to me like ReplayTV indicated the same as SchedulesDirect. And, as I said, you can look on Zap2It and see that those LLS shows do not indicate NEW, so it's kind of been a problem all along. I'm really not sure what ReplayTV did that they didn't indicate those shows as repeats because when I did my checking, it was pretty consistent that the absence of NEW showed as repeat. The thing is that, as Robert pointed out, it really isn't clear who is correct about this in the first place. For example, if these undescribed shows in the future are not indicated as repeat, but then next week when they actually fill in they ARE indicated as repeat, wouldn't that throw you off just as much that you currently thought it was going to be a conflict but it turned out that it wasn't? So, either way you look at it, it's not necessarily correct until the episode information is actually filled in. And, for example, tonight's episode is now marked as a repeat, so it shouldn't be recording for you and it shouldn't be a conflict, just as it indicated before the episode information got filled in. I just can't see how you can actually win either way. Yes, during the new season it may be mostly wrong, but wrong is certainly subjective in this case. It's not like we could just make a hard and fast rule that we would indicate everything like this as not being a repeat, that certainly may not be accurate and could cause other problems. So, short of finding out how ReplayTV accomplished this, I have no solution...

Henry
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